Vikrant Host

We have Kevin today with us, and thanks a lot, Kevin, again for joining me and being the volunteer for my first one; and making me feel better. So just a quick intro about the series: Execution at Scale is pretty much built for 3PL operators specifically. With a little over a decade I've spent in the 3PL space, I've seen some patterns, and always thought there was a limitation of content around real-life scenarios. Most of the time when we're at trade events, we're passing by each other, having lunch, having a coffee; real-life conversations; but most of what's on stage is more scripted, going toward the ABCs, not as much the real-life issues. So this is my initiative to see if it brings value to our community. A lot of you might already know Kevin; for those who don't; he's worked up from the floor, he's been in operations in real days, real time, real problems. He now runs the New Warehouse Podcast, started in 2019, has a little over a thousand episodes; right, Kevin?

Kevin Lawton Guest

Not quite at a thousand yet; we're somewhere between 750 and 800.

Vikrant Host

Almostthere, almost there; this could be episode you can add to yours, right?

Kevin Lawton Guest

Yeah, yeah; let's get us to 799

Vikrant Host

He's also a professor; I call him Professor Kevin; he did a supply chain course, so he has a very broad spectrum of understanding of the supply chain space, along with the 3PL space specifically. So, over to you, Kevin; what made you start the New Warehouse Podcast, and what kept you going? Because, as I see behind you, warehouses are sexy, but most people think they're boring; so I'd love to know, who thinks they're boring? Challenge that.

Kevin Lawton Guest

No, thanks so much for having me on, Vic, and happy to be your first guest. I love that you're doing this, I love to see other people tackling things like this, joining the podcasting world and making more of these discussions happen. Very honored to be the first guest, so thank you. Yeah, so where did this idea come from, and why talk so much about warehouses? Really, as you said; I started in warehousing kind of unexpectedly, actually as a temp in the inventory control department for a book publisher, and that's really where I first learned everything that happens within a warehouse. That wasn't my formal education, or what I went to school for; not even supply chain in the broad sense, which is interesting, because now, being a professor, I teach supply chain at the same school I graduated from. Odd turn of events. So I started there, needed a job, that's what I found; and from there I just kept growing and got interested in operations and warehousing. I think looking back, what was attracting me to it, besides just the job, was the ongoing, constant problem-solving of it. It wasn't the same thing every day; different issues to deal with, different ways to improve operations, dive into the data and really figure out, "why does this happen?", like, why does this physically happen, but the system says something different, and how do we resolve that, how do we find the root causes. I think that's what hooked me in.

A couple years in, I thought, "maybe this is going to be my career for a while," so I need to learn more about the industry, grow within it, know what other people are doing. I was searching for something easily digestible to learn from and couldn't find it, everything was, "go get a certification" or "go back to school," and I didn't have the time or the mindset for that. I'd done some creative projects on the side, I actually had a radio show about real estate at my alma mater, so I had some experience on the microphone before this podcast, and I'd done some freelance writing too. My initial thought was, "I'll write about warehouses, do a blog", but quickly realized I had no time to sit down and write, edit, and figure out how to get it out into the world.

Luckily, I had a boss who hired me three times, we got pretty close. He'd leave the company, then call me a month later and say, "I want to bring you over here." He really pulled me into the warehouse and gave me a lot of that experience; he was actually guest number two on the podcast, if anybody wants to listen. He was the one who said, "I hear podcasts are becoming a thing; what about a podcast?" I'd never even listened to a podcast before, but I thought, "sounds easier, just sit down and talk", so I committed to it.

It was really for selfish reasons, I wanted to learn more, and figured this was a way to talk to other people and have them teach me things. Over time it resonated with other people, I'd meet people at conferences, or they'd reach out and say, "this is so helpful to learn about this industry, because I'm trying to figure it out too." I realized there were a lot of other people wondering what's possible inside their four walls, and that kept motivating me to keep going. Back then, did I think I'd be doing this podcast seven years later? Absolutely not, there was no future vision of it. It was just a creative outlet that would also help me grow and network a bit more. It's been a blessing that it's grown to where it is, and helped and educated so many people. Whenever I'm interviewing somebody, I think about it in the "Kevin mindset of 2018", what is possible inside my four walls, what am I not aware of, what other solutions can I do, and I think that resonates with people. I've been lucky to be doing it full-time for the last three years. So that's really why it started, and what kept the momentum going

Vikrant Host

Amazing. It's funny, quite a few things you said resonate with me right now, because I started this series, and this is our first episode. I did it for a similar purpose, "let's make a five-episode series and see where it goes." I wanted to write a lot too, which I did four or five years back, and one thing I told you when we spoke a few days back is that I'm about to launch a book, so you talked about being in publishing and everything, but yeah, it's wonderful having these conversations. The biggest thing about possibility that you talked about, that's what I see the most too, because a lot of operators, especially in the small-to-mid-size 3PL space, are operators-turned-entrepreneurs. They could be a warehouse supervisor who now started a 3PL, juggling all the business problems along with operational efficiency, hiring, etc., those are real-life challenges.

So switching gears to our topic, you've talked to so many people: smaller warehouses, bigger warehouses, enterprises, software companies, technology providers, automation providers. If you combine all your conversations, what would you say are the top three things that become a problem when a 3PL is scaling, say, going from a two-million-dollar revenue mark toward 20 million? What happens in that ecosystem, and what challenges do they face?

Kevin Lawton Guest

Yeah, absolutely, and to your point, talking to small, large, all different sizes, I think that's one of the fantastic things about this industry: such a wide spectrum of 3PL providers, but also such a massive offering of solution providers, and uniqueness in between that allows a place for everybody.

So, when do things start to break, and what are the causes? I think oftentimes the underlying factor is a lack of really documented and structured processes. It's like, "we're getting this thing going, let's just figure it out", and then all of a sudden, there's a ton of 3PLs like this, a client just grows, explodes, or they get lucky and land a larger client, and it pushes them into a whole other world. In the 3PL world, it's like, "I can't stop shipping", you can't shut off for two days to figure out your processes.

Vikrant Host

Yeah,the brand's like, "why aren't we shipping? We hired you as the expert."

Kevin Lawton Guest

Exactly, so there's pressure to keep going. But underlying it, it's the lack of documented or structured processes that would help you scale. It's one thing when you've got a couple people in the operation who've been with you early and just know things, but as volume gets added, you need more people to pick, pack, process, and if you can't bring them in with processes in place that they can mirror and follow, that's where things start to fall through the cracks.

That leads to the second thing, maintaining quality as you scale. The more touch points, the more opportunities for things to go wrong. You could have the fanciest technology out there, but if your processes and controls foundationally aren't right, technology isn't going to fix that.

And then a third thing, maybe a tie for two, one is people, the leadership. Do you have people with the experience, ready to take on that scale? Going from smaller to larger volume, you've got to be a strong operator to maintain consistency day-to-day. Sometimes I see it, a 3PL starts because a friend had a brand and needed help, then another friend needed work, so they brought them in, but are we really ops people, or did we just find ourselves in this position? Some people are geared that way and can figure it out as it scales, but at a certain point you need to bring in someone to be a warehouse manager or ops manager. Making sure you have experience on the team that's operated at a higher volume level is key.

The other thing I've heard a lot is when you get to the size where you're expanding into multisite, going into another building, another state or region, that's where a lot of 3PLs struggle. It's a totally different market from a labor perspective, different regulations, different local laws you may not be familiar with, and that can be hard to ramp up. It ties into the people thing too, say I'm in New Jersey, and now I'm getting clients who want West Coast presence, so I'm opening a building in California or Nevada, do I have people in New Jersey I can send out to stand that up, or do I need to find somebody else, and can I trust them to do that? So there are a lot of challenges there. But foundationally, process, control, standardization, for any operation, 3PL or retailer shipping themselves, that's going to get you through those moments to scale. If my New Jersey site is solid on process and standardization, I can take those processes and put them in my California building, and we have a great baseline to start from.

Vikrant Host

Yeah, no, I totally agree, I was about to say the same thing about multi-site tying back directly to your first point about processes. I can't appreciate that more, because I'm all about processes, coming more from a manufacturing background where it's even more important to have the right processes in place. I loved what you said about people thinking, "we have this problem, we're getting errors, let's add a technology, maybe something basic like barcode scanning", obviously barcode scanning helps with elimination, but if you don't have standard processes... it's surprising to see the variability in our industry, sometimes we don't know what our customer's going to ask. As a 3PL, a brand could say, "we have a sale coming up before Christmas, we're expecting 20,000 orders in three days" when normally they ship 500 a day, and by the way, you're also putting a thank-you card in each one. So what technology does is not fix your process, it amplifies the problem, same with automation, robotics, all of that, most technology is built around processes, so if you don't follow processes, you'll feel it even bigger. One other thing I'd comment on, what you said about few people in the company knowing the process, it's not documented, I'd call it the "unicorn employee": "oh, the supervisor knows everything." What happens when he's sick, or wakes up tomorrow and decides warehouses aren't sexy anymore?

Kevin Lawton Guest

Oh,thatsounds like a nightmare.

Vikrant Host

Idon't know, it actually happened, I was talking to a client a couple days back, and he had an employee working for 15 years, and randomly one day the guy comes in and says, "I'm tired, I don't want to do this anymore," and quit on the spot. 15 years is a long time, not because he didn't like the company, not because he got another job, he was just overwhelmed, or whatever, could be a hundred different reasons, life changes. But most businesses aren't prepared for that, and I think it applies to pretty much every business.

Kevin Lawton Guest

Forsure, I 100% agree with that.

Vikrant Host

Solet's say these are some of the challenges, what do you feel stops operators from understanding these challenges? Is it because the knowledge isn't out there, is it because they're not involved, what are your thoughts?

Kevin Lawton Guest

Yeah, I think there's a couple of things. Some of it is, and I've heard a lot of these stories from 3PLs, some of this stuff moves so fast. You get a client that's relatively small, and all of a sudden they blow up, and it's like, "whoa, we've gotta keep up with them or we're gonna lose them", or you get the opportunity at a larger client, bigger than anybody you've had before, and now you've gotta move quickly, because this could be a huge catalyst for the next phase of the business, a game changer. So a lot of times it's an "all of a sudden, we need to move very quickly," and because we move so quickly, we forget some things in between. I also think a lot of 3PL owners start out doing some of the shipping themselves, and as they scale, like any business owner, it's, "when do I step back and focus more on growth versus the day-to-day?" It ties back to hiring the right people to help with that scale, or am I so in the weeds that I can't see the greater picture and the actual strategic problems happening, and not address them? That's hard to do, especially when things move quickly. But I also think you can find great, thoughtful growth by making sure you've defined your uniqueness in the market and stick to your specialty. I think that's one of the challenges too, companies say, "this is our specialty," but then a client comes along doing a large amount of volume that's totally out of scope of what you'd normally take, but the volume's tasty, so you bring them on, and it doesn't work out because you're not geared for that type of product or customer.

Vikrant Host

Absolutely, I can think of a thousand examples of those scenarios, where people go outside their ICP, which isn't necessarily bad, to expand, you have to do it sometimes, but at the end it goes back to your first point: processes and a plan are very necessary. A classic example is someone in B2B fulfillment moving toward e-commerce fulfillment, totally different processes and scenarios. With a B2B order, if it's delayed by an hour, it's fine, the LTL carrier can wait. But if you're doing 500 orders a day for e-commerce, you can't delay even 10 minutes past the FedEx or UPS cutoff, otherwise it's delayed by a day, which a brand would not like. That's just one challenge. And I'd say, that point you mentioned is also very critical: the problem of "yesterday and tomorrow." We think, "we'll set up processes, change things," but Q1 comes and we think, "we'll do it in Q2," then we get a new client in Q2, "we'll do it in Q3," and Q4 is busy season again, it just keeps looping. From the shoes of a business owner or operator, how can they work toward getting that balance or strategy?

Kevin Lawton Guest

Yeah, I think it's about going about it with that thoughtful growth. It's very easy, especially when you're trying to grow, to say yes a lot to volume. Sometimes that works, you drink from the fire hose, figure it out later, and it smooths out. But oftentimes it doesn't quite work, because you're overloading and haven't scaled labor properly, and clients suffer because quality dips, SLAs dip, and you lose clients or get churn. So the key is having that thoughtful growth, can we actually feasibly take on more volume right now, or do we need to do this improvement project first to open up capacity? It goes into strategic long-term planning too, where do I want to be from a revenue and volume perspective, and what do I need to do in between to get there? A lot of it comes down to data, understanding, "right now my average units per hour picking, packing, if I add this amount of volume, what does that mean for headcount? I have five pack stations, which means I can output this many orders a day, if I need more, do I need to add pack stations, and do I have space for that?" Sales and marketing's job is to go get customers, but logistics operations has to deliver on the promise that sales and marketing put out there. Making sure you're thinking about the whole picture holistically, being thoughtful about that growth, that's the best way. I've seen a lot of 3PLs face that challenge, revamp, rethink how they're going to do it, and come out the other side successful. And also, just learn to say no more often, which is hard when you're trying to grow the business, when you're seeing volume and dollars, "oh, this much revenue", but at the end of the day, can we sustain it?

Vikrant Host

Yeah, and I think one of the really good points you mentioned about capacity, sometimes people underestimate that, "okay, we're adding this volume, maybe we can manage it," but what about the capital investment that will also be needed? Maybe they don't have the cash flow to invest in extra stations or equipment. Obviously it depends on the volume, adding one pack station won't break someone, but as an example, that planning part. And I'm curious, one of the things you mentioned, which I also feel strongly about, is knowing your cost per client. As you mentioned, billing for a 3PL is already complex. Right before this podcast I was reading a LinkedIn post by someone about billing, saying they're using AI to do cost work, there are so many new AI tools people can be creative with, but at the same time, billing is already complex for every 3PL client, charging by picks, UOMs, value-added stuff, how long things have been stored, and so on. Getting a true P&L per client is difficult for a 3PL not using the right tools. What are your thoughts, what have you seen people do to tackle that, any recommendations?

Kevin Lawton Guest

Yeah, absolutely. I think at the end of the day, data is king. You have to be able to capture that data, you can't manage what you can't measure. I had a recent conversation with somebody at a 3PL, it's halfway through the month and they don't even know if they're on budget or not. That's a huge mess from a business perspective. If you look at how larger 3PLs that have been around a long time do their data analysis, we did a really interesting livestream with Barrett Distribution Centers, I think the end of last year, on how 3PL pricing works. They're very adamant that there's no rate card, no standard rate — each client goes through the analysis to see their actual costs. Because you can have a standard rate card, but that means with this product from this customer you'll make this much, and with another one, a little less, how do you have a consistent margin? It's easier and feels faster to market, typically a brand looking for a 3PL has a bunch of 3PLs hitting them up, like a feeding frenzy, you've seen it on LinkedIn, "I'm looking for a 3PL," 180 comments later, "oh my God, my inbox." But thinking about it thoughtfully comes down to data, ask for samples, how long does it actually take to pack, to pick, how much space does it take to store, take that data and translate it into what's the actuality of our costs. You could have somebody doing amazing volume, and when you break it down, you're shipping 30,000 units a month for this customer but making pennies, doesn't make sense. So harnessing that data, understanding your metrics, how much does it cost to do a pick, to pack, what does packaging cost, activity-based costing to understand per order, per unit, what this is going to cost and what you're going to make.

Vikrant Host

For sure, and interesting enough, my second episode is on costing, next week, Bob Byrnes was kind enough to come on, talks about all that, from IWLA, I'm sure you know him. But I think the key takeaway here is what you said about not having a standard rate card, every customer being unique, that's a very important point from your conversation with Barrett Distribution. I'll give you a live example: one of my clients onboarded a new client three months back. They gave order volume based on shipments, "these are the number of orders we process", quoted them a fee, everything good, they're in the warehouse doing it, going well. They invoice the customer, turns out the customer was counting a "kit," a combination of two to three items, as one item, the 3PL didn't ask, the brand didn't say, now there's a dispute: "this should be charged $2 when it should be $6." They're about 150K in deficit. Now they have this big customer, don't want to argue, but they added more manpower and did everything. So another important aspect: how much space items take in your warehouse, how heavy they are, special packing needs, how many line items per order, whether you have to control lot numbers or batches that add time to the process. Having a customized pricing approach per customer, and a detailed analysis, sets both you and your customer up for success, because if I'm hiring a vendor, and they don't know their cost, I might get a good deal, but that's good for a transactional relationship. For a long-term relationship, if there's a warehouse in New Jersey and one quotes $10 for storage, another 20, another 16, there's a reason for that variability. It's as important for brands and manufacturers to understand this cost as it is for 3PLs, because it helps them make that decision

Kevin Lawton Guest

Yeah, absolutely, and it's interesting, like you said, they thought it was $2 and it was $6, I was thinking, it's like going to the store, grabbing a candy bar, the shelf says $1, you walk up to the counter and it's actually $5, "wait, what?" That creates tension, because either the 3PL didn't explain to the client how these costs work, or the brand, often, if it's their first 3PL, or even their second, they're new to this. You don't see many brands that come from actual supply chain operations backgrounds, so they don't understand how all of it works, and now there are so many different variables in pricing. There's unfortunately a reputation in the industry of 3PLs having hidden costs and additional things tacked on. But for the 3PL, it's about education, you've got to educate the client on where costs are coming from. I see a lot of 3PLs work with clients and say, "as it is right now, this is the cost, but we did this thing with packaging for another client, we could do that with you too, and it would save you cost." There's no standard of pricing in the industry, everybody prices differently, some do an all-in price, some do itemized pricing which gets complicated. To your point, New Jersey, somebody's at 10, somebody's at 16, somebody's at 20, the client's probably thinking, "what's the difference, it's all four walls of concrete", but yeah, that's a great point

Vikrant Host

Yeah, that's what intrigued me, because before I got into the 3PL space I was on the other side, helping my consulting clients get 3PLs. I'd be talking to three warehouses literally next door to each other, ten minutes apart, and their pricing was off by 25-30%. That was early on, and I didn't spend much time understanding why, but as I spent more time, I realized it's hard to even articulate their exact cost sometimes. And like you said, some 3PLs assume the brand already knows everything, but most brands don't come from a supply chain or warehousing background. I remember, five or six years back, talking to a lady who worked as a front desk associate, because she couldn't find a cat toothbrush for her cat, she started a cat toothbrush brand, doing about a million dollars a year, and now she's looking for software, looking for a 3PL, and doesn't know what to do. Apparently no one was selling cat toothbrushes at the time, but it's interesting how a lot of these brands are made. Sometimes they don't start any differently than you starting the podcast, "I think there's a need, let's do something", and now something happens, and they don't know anything, don't have anyone to help them. I feel that if 3PLs take the effort to educate the brand, especially newer brands, since they have potential to grow, that could be a big value-add to the community.

Kevin Lawton Guest

Yeah, absolutely, I never thought about brushing a cat's teeth before, but it's interesting, obviously there's demand there. I think there's an education piece, somebody has a random idea that pops into their head, and something that doesn't get talked about often is: does the idea have legs or not? Sometimes inventory gets sent to a 3PL and it doesn't work out, and that inventory gets stuck, and the 3PL has to deal with it. So there's education that needs to happen for brands and clients on how to really work with a 3PL, and how the 3PL can help support their growth from an infrastructure and logistics perspective. But I also think there's a gap in the market from the brand side, I've had brands reach out asking if there's a 3PL I'd recommend, and I think the brand tends to think they have the upper hand in the relationship, doing 50 orders a month, which is great for somebody starting their own little business, but in the grand scheme of things, that's a lot of 3PLs' "I don't want that."

Vikrant Host

Yeah,yeah, yeah.

Kevin Lawton Guest

But they think, "I have business, so any 3PL would be lucky to have me", and I think that's skewed, not really talked about in the industry. Obviously 3PLs don't want to market as, "we don't want you if you've got a tiny company knitting something in your room and selling 20 a month." But on the brand side, you've got to understand where you're at, in some ways, the 3PL is also taking a risk on you, because they want the brand to grow, the more the brand grows with them, the more the 3PL grows. They're allocating space, holding your inventory, communicating with you, and early brands often have a lot of questions, a lot of back-and- forth even though there's not a lot of volume tied to it. So there should be more awareness on the brand side that a 3PL isn't necessarily going to be chomping at the bit to take on something with no volume yet, or that they should be okay paying more cost for that.

Vikrant Host

Right, it's functional, there could be different scenarios, like maybe it's someone's second brand and they know it will grow, so 3PLs might charge a premium at least to good bonds, or at scale, charge a minimum plus a premium. So as a brand, you should be ready for that trade-off. No, I absolutely agree, and just before I move to the closing point, if you were amazed about the cat toothbrush, I'll send you this, there was a company that made a cat DNA testing kit, got sold for something like 100 million in a few months, they were on Shark Tank. I'll send you that episode after this.

Kevin Lawton Guest

That was wow. Yeah, I guess that makes sense, I've heard of it on the dog side, like, "I've got a dog that's a mix of all these things, trying to figure out exactly what it is", but that's pretty incredible. People love their pets.

Vikrant Host

Yeah, they love their pets, it's pretty wild what people spend money on for their pets.

Kevin Lawton Guest

Yeah, I have more beds for my dog than I have in my entire home.

Vikrant Host

Yeah, so we're nearing time, but I just want to ask you two last things, and then if anyone in the audience, we have about eight people watching us, wants to ask anything. What would you say are some early signs a 3PL operator should be aware of that they're about to hit a breaking point as they're scaling, how can they know the signals? And any key takeaway or action point they can do this week or next week?

Kevin Lawton Guest

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a few signs things are about to break. One is you start to notice the warehouse getting disorganized, or less organized than usual; things piling up, more of a mess than usual, not as clean as typical. That means capacity is getting up, maybe starting to exceed capacity, and people don't have time to properly clean up, throw things away, clean out locations. When you see that piling up, that's an indicator something's bubbling toward a breaking point; a very visual thing you can notice. You also might hear it from your workers; them vocalizing that they're getting pushed to the limits. That could be a potential breaking point, because; to your earlier point; that person of 15 years suddenly says, "I'm tired, I'm done." You don't want to get to that point with your employees, especially while trying to scale, because now not only do you need more people for the new volume, you also have to replace that person. So those are some signs of breaking points. And the takeaway I'd say, like I said earlier, data is king in everything. If you're going to scale, want to be profitable, want to understand if this is a good client or not, you need visibility into that data; what are the actual numbers, is this sustainable, am I making money or losing money, is this a client I need to fire because they don't make sense on paper? So my key takeaway is data, data, data.

Vikrant Host

Yeah, 100%, and your point about listening to your employees on the floor is key, if someone wants one takeaway from this hour-long conversation, that's it. And an extension of that, when you start seeing the floor go quiet, and in morning meetings everyone says "yeah, everything's good", it can never be everything good in a business, doesn't matter what. If your team members aren't speaking up, you're about to fall off, is what I'd say. And overall, which I'm guilty of too, I'd been thinking about joining IWLA for about four years, joined this year, and I feel there's so much potential in the community, IWLA is one of many resources. My conversations with most 3PL owners, they're so involved and busy in day-to-day stuff that they don't feel being part of the community will be valuable. I'd say nine out of ten people I know aren't part of communities like IWLA. I feel that's something most people should do, get to know like-minded people, people in similar businesses, people they can find help through, consultants they can turn to for things they don't know, there are so many resources out there. I feel that's also very critical.

Kevin Lawton Guest

Yeah, absolutely, I agree 100%. That's certainly one thing I've found in the 3PL space, there's a very small percentage of 3PL people not willing to help other 3PLs, network with them, learn from each other, share leads even, in some cases. IWLA is certainly one of them, but there's also some great Slack groups and WhatsApp groups too, where I see people all the time asking, "has anybody had this issue, how do we deal with this?" So it's a very strong community overall, and really worth investing in, trying to learn from others too.

Vikrant Host

Awesome, great. Well, nearing the time, if anyone wants to ask anything to Kevin, drop a message in the chat. After this webinar, I'll send out my information, Kevin's information. If you want to connect with Kevin; is it okay if they connect with you on LinkedIn or email?

Kevin Lawton Guest

Yeah, absolutely, connect with me on LinkedIn; that's the best way for sure.

Vikrant Host

100%.Well, great, and Sarit, I just saw your message again, as you know, this was my first webinar, so I was juggling between the chat and talking to Kevin, so I couldn't see it, just saw it now; thank you for the congratulations, and I appreciate you joining, and appreciate everyone joining. Thanks a lot, Kevin, I really appreciate your time, this wasn't how I imagined it, I was a little nervous, but you made it comfortable for me. I appreciate that a lot.

Kevin Lawton Guest

You were great, you were great; great first time, I will say, definitely.

Vikrant Host

Yeah, I appreciate that a lot. So, one thing I forgot to say, Kevin, the webinar will end now, I guess, but you'll see an uploading thing on top, so whenever it goes to 100%, you can close the browser. But we can pretty much end the live streaming now, which I'm going to do. So thanks a lot, everyone, again, and appreciate you all joining in; stay tuned, we'll probably see you all next Wednesday.

Kevin Lawton Guest

Allright, thank you, everybody....