Vikrant Host

Welcome everyone to Execution at Scale, Episode 3. As you know, I am Vikrant Neb, founder of Lenify. So this series is because the conversations in this industry generally happen in the hallways and over coffee, not generally on the stage, so I just wanted to change that. And today, I have Michael DeFabis with me. He is a senior leader at Ideal Fulfillment, powered by DHL Supply Chain. He spent over 15 years helping Ideal grow from a $20 million regional brand to a $100 million national platform, which is commendable. And so, Mike, I would love to hand over to you if you'd like to add anything before we go into it.

Mike DeFabis Guest

Yeah, yeah. Mike DeFabis, excited to be here with you guys and ready for a fun discussion. I've been in the fulfillment space for about 16 years with Ideal, joining them in about 2009, it's almost 17 years now. And then taking that business from what it was way back then, through that journey, and through an initial acquisition by DHL that purchased us in May of 2025, into a new life of working for and with DHL. So, excited.

Vikrant Host

That's awesome. And that is a very interesting journey, most of our listeners are very much into this space, so they might know a little bit about the story, but for the ones who don't, can you tell me a little bit how did Ideal start? I know your dad started it, how was that, growing up in that? Just a little bit around that before we go into the less fun stuff.

Mike DeFabis Guest

I like to say I grew up in warehousing a little bit. My father purchased a company called Trans City Terminal Warehouse in 1990. It was a very traditional 3PL warehousing business, pallet in, pallet out. Grew that business to be one of the largest logistics providers in the Indianapolis area, and even in Indiana, doing stuff for like Books for Dummies, if you remember that, RCA, big tube TVs, and things like that. And in high school I would spend time stacking pallets of Gatorade, we'd take the blue Gatorade, the red Gatorade, and the green Gatorade and make a mixed-variety-pack pallet, moving boxes around Gatorade, which was a good workout in high school.

Ultimately he sold that company to a private equity roll-up in 2000 and was chief operating officer at the time. We had relocated the family to Nashville, Tennessee, and he spent about a year as their COO and left the business due to opposite strategic visions, private equity really focused on bottom-line growth, and my dad, more of a strategic thinker, wanting to align more on integrating these businesses, working under one operation, having a long-term vision. They were very short-sighted, and that ultimately led to dissolving that business around 2007. My father had invested a good chunk of change from that sale into roll-forward equity, and in lieu of his final payment they came back to him and said, "Instead of paying you out, what do you think about taking back this piece of the business," which later became IDS. After looking at the company and how much money they were going to leave in the bank, he took that company, rebranded it as IDS, with the vision that it was Integrated Distribution Services, bringing a full suite of transportation solutions from point of manufacturing, getting your product into the U.S. or domestically into your warehouse, and then optimizing and distributing that out using transportation services. We were looking to take that into the e-commerce industry.

And then in 2009, my dad came to me, I'd been working in banking for a while, and he said, "What do you know about marketing?" I said, "Nothing." He said, "Great, you're hired." Nepotism at its finest. But what that led me to do is learn every bit of the business, I worked in the warehouse, in IT, in finance, in operations, all of that, just to learn the business, all while doing the marketing and sales, which ultimately became my passion, sales and commercial, dealing with our customers, and that's my role today.

Vikrant Host

No, that's wonderful, so essentially you've seen it all: operations, marketing, day-to-day stuff, management stuff. And what's interesting, because I've worked a lot with family businesses in my career, is that you're kind of working at the office and also working when you're home, right? That's unique.

Mike DeFabis Guest

Fortunately, my dad and I have something in common outside of work, we're both very passionate about golf. So that helps. But yes, fortunately for me, there was a lot of growth, a lot of good times, a few rough patches, but for the most part it was good. So those Thanksgiving dinners weren't too awkward.

Vikrant Host

But yes, if times were bad, it could be very awkward, I'm sure. And by the way, out of context, but I took some motivation from you, I started learning golf, had my first lesson a couple days back.

Mike DeFabis Guest

Oh, nice. Next time we'll meet on the golf course.

Vikrant Host

That's right, get ready for the long journey of learning golf and being as frustrated as everybody else that way. So, awesome, you've worked in different departments: operations, sales, marketing, everything. You ended up choosing sales, which is your passion. What would you say about the connection and disconnect between these departments? Was there anything you felt working in one department versus another, especially in the beginning? Were they really connected together, or a little bit disconnected? What was your overall analysis?

Mike DeFabis Guest

To take you through that journey a little bit, I always say this: being the owner's son and in a family business, a lot of people go in with the mindset of, "I get to be president, I get to be CEO, I'm next in line," and train up that way. I kind of looked at it as, "I get to do what I'm passionate about." For me, that was sales. For someone else it may be a forklift driver, but you get to be the highest-paid forklift driver. That's the best thing family business gives you: the opportunity to do what you love, not what you have to do. When it comes to finance or HR, that's the worst to me, I'm not passionate about that at all, even though a CEO needs some passion for finance and HR and all aspects of the business. I pushed my career early into sales, I could show my value there, help grow the business, grow the top line. That was easy for me.

To the question of how connected the business was, when I came on board we were about a $20 million company. That business was very connected; teams were talking to each other. A lot of people stayed on through the acquisition journey, there was a divestiture of a union, so we got rid of the union, but a lot of long-term employees stayed and there was still a lot of connection. IT worked closely with operations, finance worked closely with operations, there was a good understanding, a good leadership group in place. As we grew, staying connected became a bit harder, as you hire more people, the newer ones need to know who the key players are and how to navigate the organization. There was a bit of disconnect there for a time. For the most part, the team has to be working together with common goals, and we did a lot of things within the organization to help drive that.

Vikrant Host

Very good point, that makes me wonder. Essentially, when a company scales from 20 million to 100 million, there are so many milestones in that journey. Because there are certain good things that help you grow, but there are also things that break, processes, systems, people. Sometimes people underestimate the complexity; a lot see it as an overnight journey, but it's not, it's a lot of sleepless nights, and going back and forth. What are some of the things you felt you and your team might have underestimated in that growth process?

Mike DeFabis Guest

Some of the things we underestimated during our growth journey, the first would be investing in technology; that was probably a gap. One of the biggest things when we ended up selling to DHL was we knew we needed to invest in technology, and DHL knew that too, it was a part of that phase of the growth journey. We should have invested faster. Early on we viewed ourselves as operationally focused. I saw players coming in operationally focused, and then a huge influx of tech-forward companies came in. We always positioned ourselves as operational-forward and executing at a very high level, and we were, but the mindset shifted with buyers and brands to say, "We want visibility, we want high technology as well as a high level of operational focus." We fell behind a little there and had to invest and ramp up quickly, probably 2017 to 2020, continuing to push the limits on technology as hard as we were pushing the limits on our operational abilities. That would be the biggest gap.

Investing in leadership, every book, every story, says "invest in leadership," and it's 100% true. You've got to know your limitations, be humble enough to say, "we're growing beyond what my skillset can be, or my team's skillset," and bring in outside hires. That juggling act between making the investment before you need it or when it's too late, sometimes we made hires too early, sometimes too late, but investing in that leadership team was really key. We made those investments in 2022, growing our leadership team pretty drastically from four of us to an eight-person leadership team, putting in HR, more IT people, all functions, not just operations, finance, sales, and ownership.

Vikrant Host

I think a lot of that is very similar to what I've seen, it's the vicious cycle of delaying things. We know we need to do this, but then something comes up, a new customer or whatever. One great thing is I'm an operations guy, as you know, operations-first is always great, it sets a great foundation, but to scale, leadership and technology come into play a lot. And I'm curious, you said you'd share more about the leadership side, because that's a very interesting point. How did it look, and what made the current management feel that you needed to invest in leadership? What was that tipping point, and what was your strategy?

Mike DeFabis Guest

Yeah, mine may be a little different, and I'll tell the story. Shortly after COVID, my brother-in-law Aaron, at the time our CFO, myself as CRO, my father still CEO, and another member of the executive team and ownership group, Mike Jones, our chief operating officer, Mike and Mark were nearing the end of their careers, wanting to wind down, and expecting Aaron and myself to make more decisions. We saw that, and Aaron and I came to Mike and Mark with a strategic plan on how we'd take the company from around $60 million to $200 million. Part of that was, in order to do this we need to make decisions faster, move quicker, and we need you guys to work more and harder. And they said, which we knew the answer would be, "we don't really want to do that." So the very next slide was, okay, here's what we need in order to do that: a new chief operating officer, a VP of HR, we couldn't remain at director level, we needed VPs and executive levels. And we also needed guardrails as to what decisions we could make as an executive team versus what needed board approval. So setting up those guidelines was where we saw it.

Oftentimes we saw that the skill set within the organization was being outgrown, and we needed outside influence, outside ideas. We knew very much what was going on within the four walls, but when you're growing it's hard to look outward and see new technologies because you're entrenched in your own operations. So we needed to bring in outside resources, we did, we made some great hires that ultimately led to us transitioning.

Vikrant Host

And that's very interesting, and I'd like to attach it to something you said a couple minutes back, that even leadership can outgrow the organization. So how do you go about finding people? Like, let's say I'm really good at operations, I know what needs to be done, but my ceiling is still, say, $100-million thinking. How do I go ahead and hire someone who can take me to half a billion or a billion, whatever the growth goals are? How do you go through that hiring process? I'm curious.

Mike DeFabis Guest

One of the key factors, especially around the chief operating officer hire, both people we narrowed it down to had a history of working with companies our size and taking them bigger, and even working within larger organizations in their past. So they could bring ideas and concepts of how a large organization operates, some of that structure and discipline. As far as HR and technology, we looked at people from larger companies in the 3PL industry, 500 million to billion-dollar companies, who were at the director level there, and we were able to give them a vice president title here. I believe they had the skill set and know-how needed at the director level within that organization, but a bump up in title and a bit more pay in our organization was attractive to them, control in decision-making and a seat at the executive table. That was very attractive to a lot of the hires we made.

Vikrant Host

I think that's a great point, because a lot of people I work with ask me the same question, and this is exactly what I say, bringing in someone from a really large organization is also a problem. Like you said, you were looking at a half-billion-dollar organization, which is 5X, 10X your current size, not 100X. That's also a mistake some people make, because there's a big mismatch in expectations. And during this restructuring of the leadership, were there scenarios where people had to be let go?

Mike DeFabis Guest

There were scenarios. The initial hire we made post-COVID, a chief operating officer, we gave a very distinct goal, and he knew it: we had a lot of revenue and needed to make that revenue more profitable. We had to up our game, what we had as an organization was formerly probably a lot of A players, but as we grew, those A players became B players, and B players became C players, because expectations rose. That's one of the best things we did, we continued to push the bar on expectations. What we needed was somebody with financial acumen, a mindset to come in and transform and push profitability, and he did that extremely successfully. What came along with that was a detrimental culture. We had to let some of those C players go, upgrade talent to get more A players, that was not easy on the organization, but necessary to take the business to the next level.

Once that happened, we needed a hard reset from that COO, pull back not necessarily on profitability, but on the culture, which had taken a hit; we needed to reshift and rebuild the culture. Unfortunately, he didn't have the skill set for that. We had to part ways with him and bring in another chief operating officer in 2024 who was more culturally focused, more customer-centric, and could really redirect the organization back to maintaining that profitability while shifting the culture to be a great place to work. He was able to do that very well.

Through a growth journey there come times where there needs to be a cultural shift, recognizing the pulse of the organization. Sometimes it's a very difficult decision, you take a hit on culture to take one step back and two steps forward, but it was necessary for us.

Vikrant Host

Yeah, definitely, and I think one of the challenges related to that is: let's say an employee is taking care of 10 things across any department, and now, as we're growing, we need to get more molecular about what everyone does. Whether that person gets promoted, or we need someone from outside, there's a lot of friction around, "why didn't the person from the internal team get upgraded?" I kind of call it helicopter landing, someone just comes in and leads a team of 10, and their would-be leader feels, "why didn't I get promoted?"

Mike DeFabis Guest

Yeah, that happened specifically on our IT side, as we were growing that group and made that VP hire. We had an internal candidate who was probably qualified, could have done it, but when you have an internal candidate, you know their strengths and also their weaknesses, so it's hard for them to hide those. We felt we needed an outside viewpoint, somebody to come in and look at the organization objectively. The internal candidate didn't get the position, and we hired outside, but he did stay on, and he's still with us today. The VP we hired moved on post-acquisition; he didn't want to stick around. It was strategic in nature, we needed that outside viewpoint, but also needed them to understand there's a lot this team brings, that we have a strong team, and just needed to elevate it to the next level, building on the framework and foundation already there.

'd say that was around 2012-14-ish, and around 2016 we really knew we needed to focus our ICP. We'd learned which companies and customers were profitable, which we'd take chances on, and when you're dealing with companies in the small-to-middle market segment, often they have a great product, great offering, great team, but their go-to-market strategy isn't right, and they'll go belly-up for whatever reason. Understanding who those companies are, not saying yes to everything, aligning your growth to an ICP, and going to market with a solution that resonates for the right customers and companies you can deliver and execute for profitably, that's key. There were numerous times we brought in customers who were unprofitable, or mispriced, and that set us back in our growth journey.

The last thing I'll say is one of the key metrics we look at for customer churn is revenue per square foot, how much revenue a customer brings in versus how much square footage they use. We operate multi-client facilities in numerous locations, seven or eight markets today, and we look at that metric to know when to open a new facility: are there customers not operating at a target revenue per square foot where I could backfill with a higher-revenue, higher-margin customer, and grow into another location with an anchor customer. That's kind of been our growth journey, and trust me, I've brought in unprofitable customers, and the worst, I've liquidated product before, which is not fun.

Vikrant Host

This reminded me of something we talked about a bit when we met in Long Beach, that you guys had a very specific ICP, which I felt was very unique. In my opinion it goes beyond ICP, really thinking, "okay, I'm getting this brand on board, they're doing 500 orders a day, it doesn't matter, but what is their go-to-market, will they scale to 2,000 orders a day in a year or two?" I've never seen companies think about their clients that way, that's been one of my mantras too, even when I was doing consulting: as much as it's important to know about your business, you need to know about your customer's business too, because at the end of the day it's all related. So tell me a bit more, how did that strategy come up? You said 2012, you'd say yes to everything, how did the thought process shift to looking at their go-to-market strategy, whether they can grow a lot? Because that is very unique, more companies don't think like that.

Mike DeFabis Guest

You know, specifically how we narrowed down our ICP, it was nothing earth-shattering. We looked at our customer base and asked: which ones are profitable, what do they do, what do we do well for them, which are unprofitable and why, and is this the type of business we don't want? We didn't necessarily segment our ICP down to industry-specific, although looking back maybe I could have been a bit more industry-specific. But the way we looked at it: whether I'm shipping an apparel t-shirt, kitchen knives, vitamins, supplements, or cosmetics, I'm still ship-picking, packing, and shipping, though there are different regulations around food and beverage, which was a bit of a differentiator for us.

What we looked at as our ICP was fast-growing companies early in their growth journey, small to medium size. We didn't want to be entry-level, though we did take chances on some entry-level customers, very selectively. Some of my biggest customers today, I shipped their first order, we shipped the first order for Beauty Counter (no longer around), for Chubbies at the time. We took chances on a few of those. But mostly we looked at the next-level fulfillment company, an established brand with good e-comm, and wanted to be the next level: omni-channel, helping you get into Target, into Nordstrom, push more products into Amazon, doing that value-added service retailers require while doing e-commerce. We focused on our parcel strategy, benefiting from our parcel and shipping accounts, benefiting from our location (we were in Indianapolis and Salt Lake City), was that part of the value prop for them? We also looked at value-added services, did they have kitting? That was a huge piece in how we leveraged labor within our facility.

So we came up with, call it eight to ten boxes, if you check five or six of them, we have a high percentage to win, because we believe our strategy and value prop will resonate. And on go-to-market, I laugh, because some companies are so focused and narrowed on their customer base that even if you cornered that market, and every person's birthday was on May 6th, how big is that market really? You've got to look at that and the growth potential, their go-to-market strategy, who's backing that company, their financial history, are they in Series A, Series B? Talking through all that. One of the biggest things is talking to your customers, understanding that partnership, it's not just picking and packing orders, but what is their strategic plan, their growth journey? Is it cost-driven, improving the bottom line or the top line? Getting closer to the consumer, more repeat business? What is their strategic plan, and how can we help as a partner?

Vikrant Host

Yeah, I think that's pretty much the key of the entire thing, narrowing ICP too much, like you said, the May 6th birthday analogy. You have to have the right balance, that's where people find the most difficulty, what to say no to and what to say yes to. I was actually having this conversation just a couple weeks back with someone I'm helping on the operations side, they don't have any appointment scheduling system for containers coming in, it's more first-in-first-out, and they're a decent 10-plus-million-dollar revenue company, and their customers are somewhat okay with it, trucks are waiting. I'm trying to understand how this is working, and it goes back to what you said, what their processes look like, what it looks like to support their growth. If they're not organized overall, that's a problem too. And it adds to your earlier point, will they be able to grow from X orders a day to 10X in three or four years? Those are important when onboarding a customer, because you're looking at it as a partnership, not what they are today, but what they'll be in five years, because that determines where you'll be. A 3PL isn't a SaaS company with 2,000 customers, you might have some at scale, but it's really 30-40 key customers driving growth at the end of the day. So, switching gears a little, outside your exact sales domain, what was the point in the growth path, from that whole journey to a hundred-plus million, where you felt things were a little out of control? Like, at 40 million we felt this, at 60 million we felt that, do you recall any of that?

Mike DeFabis Guest

Yeah, I asked a similar question to somebody a couple years ago, and there's not really an exact answer of "at 50 or 60 million, I need to reinvest in this." I think you need to humble yourself, know your capabilities and where you excel, and hire people around you to fill the rest, knowing what you're good at. And generally it's probably always late for people, they think they can do more, don't want to say no, delay making that hire because they don't want to make the investment. Some of the bumps we hit: WMS switchovers, we underestimated the time, effort, and resources needed to implement new technology and get it up to speed and fully functional. Other things were startups, there was a year we onboarded, I'd say, five to ten-million-dollar startups that were very complex, high school apparel companies, a food and beverage company, and wanting to say yes to all those opportunities led to hiccups during startup. Fortunately we got those customers to the right place, and they're still customers today, but those startups were rough and hurt the financials. The time from go-live to profitability was much longer than anticipated when we were spread so thin, a lot of hours. And then ultimately, through the sale of the business, that was like landing a plane during a hurricane. A wild ride.

Knowing your capabilities, not spreading yourself too thin, as we started to get multiple locations, added Atlanta, added other facilities in Indianapolis, added Salt Lake City, it came down to how we got those operations to operate with the same culture, mindset, know-how as our headquarters, hundreds or even a thousand miles away. That was very difficult. You've got to make the right hires and be willing to jump on a plane at the spur of the moment to go help out.

Vikrant Host

Yeah, I thought "living out of a suitcase" was just a term, but I realize it's a reality, that's kind of what I live now. But how many facilities did you have before you sold to DHL?

Mike DeFabis Guest

Before we sold to DHL, we had three facilities in Indianapolis, one in Atlanta, Georgia, and one in Salt Lake City, Utah, so five facilities.

Vikrant Host

Yeah, that comes out to five, I was adding it up wrong. So, growing from one facility and adding another, especially in a different city, because you have to find a totally different team, did you get some team members from your Indianapolis facility to go there and set things up? How did that look?

Mike DeFabis Guest

Part of it is knowing when is the right time to open another facility, and how, especially when you're multi-client, it's chicken-or-egg: you need the customer before the facility, and the facility before the customer. Specifically, it was a lot of travel, a ton of it. There were a couple of months where the travel expense budget was $100,000. A lot of nights. We had to get the team down there, and it was also that other facility's team coming to ours, learning the culture, the processes, working the accounts, not just us going to them.

Vikrant Host

What I haven't heard a lot is people sending their current employees to the new site, most people only think of it going the other way. That's a great takeaway, it should be a two-way approach, not one-way, because the building you've run for 10-plus years speaks to culture, and people coming in and learning there is a great idea. Usually it's more like, "let's send one or two people to the new building, they'll set it up and come back."

Mike DeFabis Guest

Specifically how we opened facilities: Salt Lake City was an acquisition, a customer was pushing us to be on the West Coast, around 2014, when Amazon was really pushing two-day delivery and customers were all-in on that. That allowed us to open the operation in Salt Lake City by purchasing a company, they weren't necessarily doing fulfillment, but had a viable, somewhat profitable business with a warehouse full of product. We brought in some of our current customer base, churned out old customers that weren't core, and trained the team up on fulfillment.

Vikrant Host

Yeah, 100%. Those are all great points. I want to use a couple more minutes, maybe you can share, at a high level, for someone thinking about getting into the fulfillment side of the business, or someone primarily in B2B thinking about moving into fulfillment, what are some things you'd tell them? I ask because in a few weeks I'd like to do another session with you just on fulfillment operationally. So, what are some takeaways for people around that?

Mike DeFabis Guest

The easiest way for companies to get into fulfillment: I wouldn't go in with a brand-new customer, look at an existing customer who's maybe looking to get into e-commerce, or leverage a B2B relationship where you're doing a great job to gain an understanding first. It's not overly complex, it's just a different unit of nature, boxing things up. The biggest thing is getting your pricing right. If you take a chance on a smaller company doing 150-200 orders a day, if you miss a little, it's not going to crush your business, you're investing to learn, setting it up right, making sure you have the technology, the unit of measure (picking eaches rather than cases and pallets, which is different), the systems and processes in place to be as efficient as possible. And then just learn, ultimately I probably wasted over a million dollars in my career just learning things. Sometimes you've got to invest in learning, even if you low-ball pricing to gain the knowledge and expertise to go get that next customer or next piece of business. It's hard to demonstrate you're capable of handling fulfillment and direct-to-consumer if you're not doing it already, and can't show it that day.

We were fortunate, we landed a couple of small fulfillment relationships early on, focused on direct marketing and multi-level marketing, working with people doing Tupperware-style parties, picking, packing and shipping beauty products. That wasn't very big, but then we landed a large apparel company, and that's what took us from talking about fulfillment to showcasing on a large scale that we could actually do it, and they're still a customer today. From there, it just kind of snowballed.

Vikrant Host

Absolutely, and I think what you said about systems and technology is the highlight, because operationally, in pallet-in-pallet-out and building pallets for B2B, everyone's used to single-order picks, which you can get away with until you're at 50-60 orders even for e-comm while starting out. But having the fulfillment line, forward-pick areas, all that, that's a very different operational side. So we're nearing the time, I'd like to give you the next two or three minutes to conclude the whole growth-phase conversation. What are some takeaways you'd want someone to leave with, if they only heard the last two minutes because they think you and I are being boring?

Mike DeFabis Guest

I don't know, I think we covered a lot. I appreciate the time. As you grow companies, it's not an easy journey, but it's a fun one. Our journey ultimately came to a close with the acquisition by DHL, which was a huge strategic play for them, they needed a multi-client, multi-site network to reach small-to-medium-sized markets, and we brought that value to them; the acquisition has been great, and we're finalizing our go-to-market strategy there. When you're in the trenches, it's easy to lose sight of all the cool things that happened, we closed that chapter and started a new one. Looking back, I think about what fulfillment even meant when I started, people didn't know what fulfillment was, then Amazon pushing two-day delivery, early adoption of automation, the influx of tech-forward fulfillment companies (still out there today), ROIs on automation, COVID and its implementation impact, and now automation plus AI, and customers looking at that. I learned at IWLA, I was talking with guys about AEO and had no idea what it was, completely shocked, that's AI SEO, SEO for AI, and it's crazy how fast the journey and the landscape are changing for these companies. Just having the vision to not be so siloed, talk to a lot of people, grow your network, I think the 3PL industry is insanely open and willing to share and help people, mainly because there's more than enough business to go around, and everybody's not the right fit for everything. It's not a right way or wrong way to do it, but at the end of the day, we're in it to make money, and to build a good business. Make money together, and build the community.

Vikrant Host

Right, and if you want to know anything about AEO, let me know, I can help.

Mike DeFabis Guest

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I need to maybe do a little one-on-one session, or just go ask AI what AEO is.

We were fortunate, we landed a couple of small fulfillment relationships early on, focused on direct marketing and multi-level marketing, working with people doing Tupperware-style parties, picking, packing and shipping beauty products. That wasn't very big, but then we landed a large apparel company, and that's what took us from talking about fulfillment to showcasing on a large scale that we could actually do it, and they're still a customer today. From there, it just kind of snowballed.

Vikrant Host

Yeah, ask Claude that.

Mike DeFabis Guest

Oh, like, "how do I rank on you?" Which I think is the answer, right?

Vikrant Host

No, no, that's awesome. Thank you so much, Mike. Really appreciate your time and all your knowledge, and offering to help everyone, that means a lot, and I know your time is valuable. I really, really appreciate you coming on and having this wonderful conversation. And thank you all, everyone, for joining in, with this, we'll see you next time.

Mike DeFabis Guest

All right, sounds good. See ya.